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Author Topic: Question to candidates  (Read 4627 times)
John
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« on: October 22, 2009, 01:31:06 PM »

Dear Candidates

In a post yesterday evening, one candidate stated:
"...the endorsement of non-NUJ journalists, such as Jon Snow, are as valid as union members".

Do you agree?

Accepting that a candidate has no control over social networking sites like Facebook, would you agree with a proposal that NUJ electoral rules should be changed to require candidates to specify which of their supporters are not NUJ members when creating/operating a website in support of their candidacy?

Thanks

John Jones
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martin_cloake
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2009, 05:42:20 PM »

I think there's a deeper question behind this. I've always been slightly irritated when people use the 'famous journalist x says this' tactic. Of course people tend to use higher profile figures to gain attention, but I sometimes wonder if there's a bit of an assumption that the views of a famous journalist are worth rather more than the views of us merely mortal journalists. Jon Snow may think one thing, my mate Richard on the subs desk at Take a Break thinks something different. One view is only worth more than the other if what you really believe is that only one is a 'proper' journalist.
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Michael Cross
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2009, 05:50:11 PM »


I don't think I'd pay much attention to a non-member telling me how to vote. I wouldn't expect my supporters to, either.
That said, it's always interesting to know why people leave the union - if only so we can challenge myths of the 'Gadhafy telegram' type.
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SteveUsher1
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2009, 07:09:36 PM »

I think you need people to vouch for your journalism skills and people to vouch for your union activities. An endorsement from a non-member is as good as that of a member for your journalism skills. We work with both groups after all. Members will vouch for your union skills but may know nothing of your journalism skills. I don’t see any harm in endorsements from either group regarding your capabilities as a future editor of a magazine. Having said that, I have already stated that only one of my backers is, to my knowledge, a lapsed member.
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John
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2009, 07:37:58 PM »


I don't think I'd pay much attention to a non-member telling me how to vote. I wouldn't expect my supporters to, either.
That said, it's always interesting to know why people leave the union - if only so we can challenge myths of the 'Gadhafy telegram' type.

You're right Michael, it is interesting (and also a very useful tool for recruitment and retention), but the point is that we need to know which supporters aren't members.

Steve also makes a good point, that endorsements from non-members can be valid.

It doesn't matter a jot to me whether a candidate is supported by someone famous, but I do worry if I think I'm being misled/spun into thinking a candidate has more support among my fellow NUJ members than exists in reality. To my mind, unless all candidates openly declare which web-listed supporters aren't members, we're none the wiser, and left with a nasty whiff in the nostrils.

At which point, I'd again like to offer my thanks to those candidates who've responded positively to my requests for information. I appreciate your candour.

John Jones
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TimArnold
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2009, 12:01:43 AM »

Only two people in my election literature are not members of the NUJ, and they are accurately described.

They are not "supporters" but character referees, who can vouch for my abilities and commitment, having worked by my side in campaigns. 

I have not merely listed a group of names, unlike others - instead, they are quoted, sometimes at length, as in the case of the former general secretary, John Foster. I would rate Foster's views more highly than any lapsed member.

As I stated at the hustings this week in Manchester, I feel strongly that NUJ members should not be told what they should do by people who are not paying for their ticket on the bus, ie by paying out their hard-earned cash to be members.

Tim Arnold
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John
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2009, 11:24:49 PM »


As I stated at the hustings this week in Manchester, I feel strongly that NUJ members should not be told what they should do by people who are not paying for their ticket on the bus, ie by paying out their hard-earned cash to be members.

Tim Arnold

Tim

Thanks for the response. I couldn't agree more. As long as each candidate is open about which of their listed supporters are not NUJ members, there's no chance of confusion. A problem only arises when one or more of the candidates are less than candid in their response about which of their supporters aren't members.

Kind regards

John Jones
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Mark Watts
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2009, 11:28:01 PM »

Yes, I am guilty of the heinous crime of having my candidacy endorsed by Jon Snow, Channel 4 News presenter. The FOIA Centre, of which I am co-ordinator, revealed the fact that, while he was supporting my candidacy, he had quit the NUJ: http://www.foiacentre.com/news-NUJ-Journalist-editor-endorsements03.html.

I am quoted in that article as saying: “I am certain that NUJ members would be interested to hear the views of Jon and other senior journalists who have backed my campaign.”

“However, at the end of the day, only the NUJ members matter, and they have to decide for themselves how to vote. Before doing so, they really should look through the material from all the candidates enclosed with the ballot papers.”

I am putting myself forward as the best journalist for the job. As I said in my election address: “I am not a union ‘hack’. I am a journalist. I am a journalist who has, of course, belonged to the NUJ throughout his career. I have been a supporter of the NUJ and its campaigns, and have been active at chapel level [as a former joint-FoC]. But, fundamentally, I am about journalism rather than trade unionism.”

The FOIA Centre has published articles containing a series of quotes from journalists endorsing me as the next editor of the Journalist.

http://www.foiacentre.com/news-NUJ-Journalist-editor-endorsements04.html
http://www.foiacentre.com/news-NUJ-Journalist-editor-endorsements01.html
http://www.foiacentre.com/news-NUJ-Journalist-editor-endorsements02.html

Steve has already made the crucial point. Endorsements, in my view, are of value if they come from journalists who are able to vouch for a candidate's journalistic skills, her/his plans for the mag or her/his NUJ commitment. An endorsement from a non-member can certainly be as good as that of a member for a candidate's journalistic skills or plans for the mag. It would depend on how highly voters rate the journalist providing the endorsement.

In my view, journalists – including NUJ members - rate Jon Snow very highly, and that is why the FOIA Centre ran an entire article solely relating to him.

In my view, however, endorsements given by people before they knew what other candidates were standing are of little value.

As I have said in a related thread, if I were editor, the Journalist would become outward-looking, focussing on industry issues of interest and concern to NUJ members as journalists. I see it as helping to drive up recruitment of both new and ex-members. As I say, the endorsements of non-NUJ journalists, such as Jon Snow, are as valid as union members.

I will quote Martin Buckley, a freelance who has worked as a BBC producer and is a regular contributor to Radio 4 (sorry, if anyone thinks that makes him far too impressive to have a valid view), who posted an online comment that ended with: “It's pretty clear that if you want a Journalist magazine that prioritises leftist politics over every other aspect of journalism, you vote Simcox, and if you want a mag that’s interested in the whole experience of the journalist in a very fast-changing world, you vote Watts. Jon Snow appears to think so – but Oh Dear, he’s prominent, isn’t he?”

I see no need for a rule to require candidates to declare which of their supporters are NUJ members or not.

After all, it hardly compares with failing to declare in election literature that you are the candidate of a particular political grouping. Perhaps candidates in future NUJ elections will learn from this experience. And, if so, the NUJ membership would be better served.

As it happens, the question is a bit of a red herring so far as I am concerned. This is because, so far as I know, the vast majority of journalists who have publicly endorsed my campaign are, as I have said, NUJ members, with the exception of Jon Snow and two others who had been active at chapel level.
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John
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2009, 11:59:19 PM »


I see no need for a rule to require candidates to declare which of their supporters are NUJ members or not.

...

As it happens, the question is a bit of a red herring so far as I am concerned. This is because, so far as I know, the vast majority of journalists who have publicly endorsed my campaign are, as I have said, NUJ members, with the exception of Jon Snow and two others who had been active at chapel level.


Mark

Thanks for the clarification.

It really wouldn't be that difficult to confirm which of your supporters are still NUJ members. You refer elsewhere to the number of emails and considerable level of support you've received from ordinary journalists. Surely, between all of you, you could send an email to each of the supporters listed on your website, asking the named person to confirm that he/she is a member and then update the site?

To be honest, having Jon Snow as a 'trophy' endorsement would carry more weight with me if he was still a member, but I would support you 100 per cent if you win this election and make it your first project to recruit Jon back into the NUJ.

I really hope you don't see my persistance on this as a personal vendetta. It really is because of the two people from my branch area you quote as supporters, only one is actually a sub-paying member, giving you a hit rate of 50 per cent for supporters who are actually members. I do hope that this pattern is an anomaly, and not repeated amongst your other supporters.

Regardless of the result of this election, I think we do need an amendment to the NUJ's election rules in the future, to avoid any possibility of members being misled about which candidate's supporters aren't actually members.

I daresay the change will come.

Kind regards

John Jones
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christinexbuckley
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2009, 06:49:32 PM »

Endorsements are important because we are asking people who don't know us to believe what we say. But this is a union election and those people endorsing should be union members. I agree with Martin that the famous thing can be overplayed. I have one or two well known names among my supporters but I also have also others. All of them are members. We can't control who joins facebook groups but we should be responsible for those used in election material.
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John
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2009, 02:01:47 PM »

Endorsements are important because we are asking people who don't know us to believe what we say. But this is a union election and those people endorsing should be union members. I agree with Martin that the famous thing can be overplayed. I have one or two well known names among my supporters but I also have also others. All of them are members. We can't control who joins facebook groups but we should be responsible for those used in election material.

Thanks Christine - your response makes a lot of sense, and is very much in line with my own views.

Best regards

John
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Richard Simcox
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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2009, 02:23:36 PM »

John - just to let you know, I've added a new supporter to my list and he's not an NUJ member.
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John
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2009, 09:20:19 PM »

John - just to let you know, I've added a new supporter to my list and he's not an NUJ member.

Thanks for the clarification Richard. It's nice to hear from a candidate who can be definite about where his support comes from, and doesn't feel the need to hedge responses about support from non-members with politician's phrases like "so far as I know".

I must say, given the amount of bile and hypocrisy that has been spewed in your direction in this campaign, I greatly admire your restraint, and the dignified way in which you have conducted yourself.

Best regards

John
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Mark Watts
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2009, 07:22:13 PM »

To John, re: “I greatly admire your restraint, and the dignified way in which you have conducted yourself.”

Well, Richard hardly needs to do otherwise given the number of people in “NUJ Left” who have been commenting online and on this forum on his behalf without declaring their membership of that hard-left faction, let alone the others who have done likewise as cheerleaders for the interests of “NUJ Left”.

“NUJ Left” has anointed Richard Simcox as some sort of prince regent, who they expected to be ushered into becoming editor of the Journalist. And “NUJ Left” has been able to rely on plenty of other people to do the “dirty work” of smearing critics of that faction who challenge – possibly even halted – its attempted hijack of the NUJ.

In any event, I am unaware of any "bile and hypocrisy that has been spewed" towards Richard by anyone in this election campaign. I have, however, highlighted the fact that "NUJ Left" fielded him as a candidate without his declaring that fact in his election material sent to NUJ members with the ballot paper. And after all this time, we have still had no proper answer to why he made that serious omission.

And Richard, after all, is hardly the first example of an “NUJ Left” candidate who failed to declare that fact in election material sent to the voters. I note, for example, that Tom Davies has failed to answer this point on another thread:  http://www.journalism.co.uk/journalists/forum/index.php/topic,2004.15.html. And these two are not lone examples.

Re: “politician's phrases like ‘so far as I know‘.” Congratulations. Thanks to your loose wording, John, you have managed to defame seven of the eight candidates in this election. Copy writing is plainly not your strength. Do you remember anything you read in McNae’s?

I will help you out. You did not mean to defame six of seven candidates, but only me. Although a casual reader of your post would not realise it, I was the one who said: “So far as I know, the vast majority of journalists who have publicly endorsed my campaign are, as I have said, NUJ members, with the exception of Jon Snow and two others who had been active at chapel level.”

Your allegation that this was a “politician’s phrase” is made without any evidence. (Again, try re-reading McNae’s for some basics on this.) The reason you have no evidence is simple: it is false. It is another smear, something of a speciality for those associated with "NUJ Left".

You attempt to distract attention from one candidate’s failure to declare his affiliation not only to a political group, but to one that organises within the NUJ, by referring to candidates’ failure to specify whether endorsers are NUJ members.

There plainly is no equivalence. In any event, your call for candidates to declare whether endorsers are NUJ members is ridiculous. And the following case shows why.

One of my endorsers made a point of the fact that he is a long-time NUJ member. He chose to do so because it was directly relevant to an observation that he was making about “NUJ Left”.

This endorser also made a comment on the NUJ website online. I am aware of the fact that journalists who have publicly endorsed me are coming under the classic “NUJ Left” treatment, including smears and bullying pressure to withdraw their public support. Indeed, someone from “NUJ Left” working as a staff member at the NUJ – not the usual moderator – interfered with this endorser’s comment on the NUJ site, and added: “I am not an NUJ member.”

This additional sentence was made to appear as if the commenter had written it. That was, of course, outrageous. Furthermore, the addition was untrue. Indeed, it was a smear because this particular commenter had publicly claimed to be a long-standing NUJ member: it defamed him by making him appear to be a liar.

The usual moderator later changed that added sentence to appear as a comment not included by the original commenter, saying in brackets that the commenter “is not an NUJ member.” This at least did not appear to be written by the commenter, but was still untrue. It was still a smear.

Why did the person from “NUJ Left” and, subsequently, the moderator think that the commenter was not an NUJ member? They had rifled through the NUJ membership database, and could not find his name there. That appeared to show that my endorser was not, contrary to his claim, an NUJ member. However, the reason his name did not appear in the membership database was because of an administrative cock-up at NUJ HQ, which had falsely ascribed his subs to somebody else. The additional sentence was duly removed from the comment on the NUJ site following complaints.

This demonstrates how it would be practically impossible for a candidate to verify whether an endorser was an NUJ member. First, supporters could, conceivably, say that they are members when they are not. Second, the membership database has proven to be unreliable. And even if a candidate were to check an endorser’s press card or membership card, that would be no guarantee against the possibility that s/he had stopped paying subs since receiving such cards. A candidate would have to require an endorser to produce bank statements to show NUJ subs being paid up to date. That shows how ridiculous your suggestion is.

Many of my endorsers are from outside London, where I am based. Therefore it would be even more impractical for a candidate such as me to verify whether some endorser is an NUJ member.

I therefore repeat what is the only honest response to the original question: “So far as I know, the vast majority of journalists who have publicly endorsed my campaign are, as I have said, NUJ members, with the exception of Jon Snow and two others who had been active at chapel level.”

Now, how about some proper answers from people in “NUJ Left” about real issues? For example, Richard Simcox has failed to answer (http://www.journalism.co.uk/journalists/forum/index.php/topic,1990.0.html)  how he could be independent if “NUJ Left” succeeds in its campaign to have him elected as editor of the Journalist, given the aim of “NUJ Left” that I cited: “Maintaining regular and effective communication among all levels of the NUJ, including liaison between NUJ Left and NEC Left members, to ensure senior lay and elected left officials are accountable to NUJ Left.”
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 08:20:06 PM by Mark Watts » Logged
John
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2009, 10:53:40 PM »

Mark

Thanks again for a lengthy reply.

If I can make one thing plain - it is perfectly possible for people  to disagree with you, and the way you have conducted yourself in this campaign, without necessarily being members or supporters of NUJ Left.

I suppose I'm proof of that particular pudding - I was actually a publicly-declared supporter of a candidate who was opposed by 'NUJ Left' during the last election for a salaried NUJ post.

As it happens, I was asked whether I wished to publicly support Richard Simcox for this election, but declined to do so publicly as I don't actually know him, so I hope you can accept that I'm certainly not acting as some sort of cheerleader for the left in the NUJ.

If you look back over previous postings on this forum, you will see that most, if not all of the other candidates have been pretty definite about which of their supporters aren't actually NUJ members. Most seem to agree with the view that endorsements from non-members can be relevant in this election, if they give weight to a candidate's journalistic credentials. If I'm reading the various responses correctly, there seems to be a general consensus that it is better if non-member supporters are identified as such, although I recognise that you hold a differing view.

To be honest, I have difficulty in understanding your reasons for this. What harm could it do if candidates were required to state on any supporting website that a,b,c were members, whilst x,y,z were not? Surely anything that helps to promote transparency is to be welcomed.

I'm afraid that a lot of your most recent post has gone completely over my head, as I haven't actually paid much attention to the coverage of this election on the NUJ's own website. All I can say, is that in the interest of fairpaly, if someone's been mucking about with postings then it needs looking at.

As you'd expect, I don't regard it as at all ridiculous that a candidate should be expected to identify their supporters as NUJ members or otherwise. We all have membership cards, and if we've mislaid those, we have the membership number on our press cards. If, as you suggest,  there are problems with record keeping in the membership department, then hopefully, that can be improved. After all, our paid staff are only human. However, it shouldn't be too difficult to sort it out so candidates at any future election can state, with some authority, which supporters are members and which are not, regardless of where they, or their supporters live.

You have said, elsewhere, of your supporters: "I did not, in general, ask them to declare publicly whether they were NUJ members or not". I, for one, wish you had, given that this is an election for an NUJ post, with a generous salary, paid by NUJ members' subscriptions.

Mark, on one thing, we can certainly agree. Copy writing is not my strongpoint. I was reared on Cassell's 'Photographers and the law', rather than McNae. Yes - I'm a snapper, although a large part of my income now comes from writing as well, but I'm confused.... Does McNae really suggest that society currently holds journalists in such high regard that comparison with politicians can be regarded as defamatory?

"Shurely shome mishtake....."

John
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